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 Debate between OVC and Ryan Dube 16 Dec 2010

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Octarine Valur


Posts : 14
Join date : 2010-10-26
Age : 45
Location : Port Elizabeth, South Africa

PostSubject: Debate between OVC and Ryan Dube 16 Dec 2010   Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:52 pm

Debate between Ryan Dube of Top Secret Writers.com and invited members of the OVC held on 16 Dec 2010.


Ryan Dube

Octarine Valur
Belfazaar Ashantison
RK Coon

[00:58:57] Octarine Valur : Greetings. First, a word of welcome to all of you, and to our guest, Ryan Dube.

[00:59:14] Octarine Valur : No specific topic for this debate has been decided, but I think the general idea is that it will flow around some recent events as well as the reflection of the Vampyre Community in Ryan Dube's recent articles.

[00:59:31] Octarine Valur : The aim of this debate then, is to clear the air, discuss some recent events with Ryan Dube, and to try and provide him with better insight into the VC and our nature by allowing him to engage with diverse members of the community.

[00:59:51] ryan : sounds wonderful.

[01:00:01] Belfazaar Ashantison : sounds good to me...

[01:00:01] Octarine Valur : Lastly, all participants are to bear in mind that a transcript of the debate will be posted on this forum later in the interests of transparency.

[01:00:03] ryan : i have to say i've never been so nervous about a discussion!

[01:00:09] wraiths,.., has joined the chat on Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:00 am

[01:00:16] Belfazaar Ashantison : You have my personal thanks, Ryan, for attending this

[01:00:19] Nadia115 : No reason to be nervous lol

[01:00:20] Octarine Valur : Now worries Wink We won't bite! Very Happy

[01:00:23] Cheri : should we do introductions?

[01:00:36] ryan : I'm usually not nervous about interviews or discussions at all...lol

[01:00:36] Belfazaar Ashantison : I bite, but only if asked... and then only at play

[01:00:37] Octarine Valur : Good idea Smile

[01:00:39] Cheri : evening Wraiths

[01:00:43] ryan : Hi Wraiths

[01:00:48] @ wraiths,.., : hello everyone and welcome

[01:00:58] Nadia115 : Hello Wraiths Smile

[01:01:10] ryan : yes introductions would be great

[01:01:14] Octarine Valur : Introductions? Who's first?

[01:01:15] Belfazaar Ashantison : Hello Wraiths... Told you I would make it

[01:01:52] Cheri : well I am willing to start introductions if you like

[01:02:00] Octarine Valur : go ahead Smile

[01:02:03] Nadia115 : I am Nadia..the 115 is just from far too long on the internet lol

[01:02:04] @ wraiths,.., : sorry but im on a bad lag time... im doing this Via Blackberry

[01:02:13] Nadia115 : Sorry Octarine

[01:02:14] Belfazaar Ashantison : Hello Ryan, I am Belfazaar Ashantison, Founder and Elder, House of Mystic Echoes and Founder of NOVA (New Orleans Vampire Association)... I'm a sanguine vampire who has been in the community since the age of 13 in 1978...

[01:02:45] ryan : wow...13. Pleased to meet you finally, Belfazaar

[01:03:42] Nadia115 : Hello Ryan, I am Nadia from House AVA. I am still new to the online community as I had spent most of my life as a loner.

[01:04:12] Cheri : I am Cheri, I am Primarily Sang Donor, I do donate Psi, but have been a Sang donor for almost 20 years.

[01:04:16] Belfazaar Ashantison : Thanks Ryan... Yeah... I began acknowledging what I was at the age of 11... I fully awakened to my vampirism (accepted it) at 13 and entered my first Order in the community

[01:04:36] ryan : Oh - I didn't realize I'd be meeting a donor too!

[01:04:41] ryan : Pleased to meet you Cheri

[01:04:44] ryan : And Nadia

[01:04:51] Nadia115 : Ah yes, guess I should add that I am Sang

[01:05:14] @ wraiths,.., : y'all know me already

[01:05:15] EvilVampyre : I'm Evil Vampyre, I've been lurking for more years than I care to admit.

[01:05:15] RKCoon has joined the chat on Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:05 am

[01:05:33] Belfazaar Ashantison : Heya Koon... Welcome to the chat!!!

[01:05:35] Cheri : evening RKCoon

[01:05:53] RKCoon : Greetings everyone.

[01:05:56] Nadia115 : Hello RK Smile

[01:06:02] Octarine Valur : I'm Octarine, I'm 37 and am co-founder of the IVA along with Wraiths. I only joined the community online at the start of this year. I identify as a sanguine, but also feed psi. I live in South Africa.

[01:06:08] ryan : Hello RKCoon

[01:06:09] Belfazaar Ashantison : We do have a diverse community, Ryan...

[01:06:27] ryan : that's very apparent already

[01:06:39] ryan : actually within a week I realized just how diverse...

[01:06:54] ryan : did you guys hear about all of the recent background?

[01:07:01] ryan : oh wait sorry, was that everyone?

[01:07:18] Octarine Valur : So far it seems so Wink

[01:07:22] Nadia115 : I believe most everyone has...we are not sure as people are still getting home from work

[01:07:37] ryan : ok...before we really roll I wanted to share a couple things is that okay?

[01:07:38] Belfazaar Ashantison : We may have others join as they get the time...

[01:07:42] Octarine Valur : if anyone else comes they can join us on the fly

[01:07:47] Belfazaar Ashantison : go for it

[01:08:00] Nadia115 : Please feel free to do so Ryan

[01:08:08] ryan : great...I have to admit up until now I haven't followed all of the forums or online discussions

[01:08:23] ryan : however, I've heard about a lot of the fallout from the Sappho interview

[01:08:40] ryan : from a few people - Lady CG, Vyrdolak, etc...

[01:08:53] ryan : I only recently (a week ago) finally hooked up with Vyrdolak

[01:09:00] ryan : she shared some of her findings about Sappho

[01:09:16] ryan : the interview that I guess triggered a storm...

[01:09:28] Belfazaar Ashantison : *nod* yeah... felt some of the heat of that

[01:09:29] ryan : she shared some of her data with me and I revealed to her what I discovered

[01:09:39] ryan : I promised her I wouldn't publish...oh wait

[01:09:46] ryan : this chat will be public won't it

[01:10:16] Belfazaar Ashantison : We've all discussed several "new" findings on Sappho

[01:10:18] Octarine Valur : Yes, it will be posted on the Press section of this forum

[01:10:23] ryan : well - maybe I can just share this little bit because it reflect poorly on me...but I just want to be honest with everyone...

[01:10:41] ryan : I discovered 2 other personas that she'd faked in my comment area

[01:10:49] ryan : I was stunned to see that two of them were claiming to be Sangs

[01:11:07] ryan : so - aside from feeling humiliated for my selection of first vampire to interview

[01:11:11] ryan : apparently I was scammed as well

[01:11:13] @ wraiths,.., : she got the info from us ryan

[01:11:33] ryan : who's that - Vyrdolak?

[01:11:42] Belfazaar Ashantison : she had to make it seem like there were sangs who agreed with her statements, since many of us challenged them

[01:11:45] Nadia115 : Do not feel bad Ryan, it happens to everyone

[01:12:09] ryan : yes I agree Belfazaar - I realized that in hindsight

[01:12:35] ryan : as an aside - you'll be glad to know (I think)

[01:12:42] Belfazaar Ashantison : hindsight is the greatest teacher in the world sometimes

[01:12:43] ryan : I've just finished a great interview with Joe Laycock

[01:13:02] ryan : to be published this week or weekend....he's wonderfully balanced about the vampire community

[01:13:11] ryan : so I think this second interview will be much better :-)

[01:13:29] Belfazaar Ashantison : COOL!! I really like Joseph... He and John Browning (a local researcher) are doing good things in the community... As far as being outsiders

[01:13:42] ryan : yes - I really learned a lot from what Joe had to say

[01:13:42] Nadia115 : Kudos

[01:14:16] ryan : the best point he made was that we can learn best about the community not by judging but by listening

[01:14:23] ryan : ...to actual members of the community

[01:14:36] ryan : seems simple - but I guess a lot of journalists don't exactly get that point...

[01:15:02] zimmerchild has joined the chat on Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:15 am

[01:15:04] Belfazaar Ashantison : Ryan, if you contact me offlist, I will introduce you to John who has been following NOVA for over a year...

[01:15:12] @ wraiths,.., : so true... this is a chance to do that ryan

[01:15:27] Cheri : evening Zimmerchild

[01:15:33] ryan : yes exactly - have any of you had negative media contacts?

[01:15:45] Belfazaar Ashantison : Heya Z, what's up

[01:16:08] @ wraiths,.., : lmao... afew bad ones ryan...

[01:16:10] zimmerchild : Cheri, Belfazaar, just got dinner and thought I would log in.

[01:16:12] Cheri : I avoid the media as a rule

[01:16:15] Nadia115 : After working for a police department I avoid media contacts as much as possible, no offense

[01:16:16] Belfazaar Ashantison : LOL... Now that is an entertaining question, Ryan... From personal experience, I've altered the way I look at media

[01:16:24] ryan : do they generally always twist what you say?

[01:16:45] Nadia115 : Pretty much my experience Ryan

[01:16:48] ryan : haha...I can understand that Nadia

[01:17:02] @ wraiths,.., : welcome Z

[01:17:05] Belfazaar Ashantison : Generally, as a rule, it is good for me to keep in my mind this statement, "true journalism was replaced by sensationalism in the 1980s"

[01:17:27] Nadia115 : So very true Belfazaar lol

[01:17:38] ryan : yes - it takes work though. Journalism really requires deep research, and I think a lot of writers are in such a hurry they don't bother

[01:17:41] ryan : hence.....sensationalism

[01:17:54] ryan : i actually made that mistake with that quick news blurb I wrote up

[01:18:06] Belfazaar Ashantison : This, however, hasn't stopped me from attempting to get the truth of our condition out there...

[01:18:07] ryan : do you realize, before I published that I didn't even know there was such a "community"?

[01:18:17] ryan : I was like...a "what" community?

[01:18:37] ryan : You really think it's hopeless Belfazaar?

[01:18:48] Belfazaar Ashantison : roflmvao... yeah... sometimes we ask that very same question... especially when people like Sappho pull what they do

[01:19:24] ryan : yeah - when I first realized what she'd done my first question (to myself) was whether she's the exception or the rule

[01:19:34] Belfazaar Ashantison : No. I don't think it is hopeless, but I think that until a journalist gets the balls to carry the story as we state it, it is an uphill battle just to get PIECES of the truth out...

[01:20:16] EvilVampyre has been disconnected the Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:20 am (session timeout)

[01:20:30] Belfazaar Ashantison : I have to ask though, Ryan, did you approach Sappho or did she approach you? It seemed a bit too conveniently timed after your 'vampire crime' articles

[01:20:53] ryan : yes, actually I received about 5 or so emails, maybe a few more

[01:20:54] RKCoon has been disconnected the Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:20 am (session timeout)

[01:21:00] ryan : I actually chose her because she sounded the most intelligent

[01:21:03] RKCoon has joined the chat on Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:21 am

[01:21:07] ryan : the least aggressive/hateful

[01:21:35] ryan : I thought she's offer the most insight (not knowing anything about the community)....once again, I should have searched for who the actual leaders are

[01:21:39] ryan : again - laziness on my part

[01:21:41] RKCoon : I would point out, that as one Anshar found, the media does not generally care to portray vampirism in a light that those advocating it might wish.

[01:21:58] Nadia115 : Mistakes happen...as long as people learn from them...

[01:22:09] EvilVampyre has joined the chat on Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:22 am

[01:22:22] Cheri : I agree RK

[01:22:45] Octarine Valur : I note in one of your comments on your article where our community was described as a cult by the private investigator in the Shellby ellis case, you pointed out "an online community can't classify as a cult due to the fact that it just doesn't meet the criteria of secrecy, member indoctrination (rather than expressive freedom)" - what is your current view of our community?

[01:23:24] Octarine Valur : I rather liked that comment by you by the way.

[01:23:29] ryan : thats' an awesome question

[01:23:39] ryan : I've always avidly followed cults

[01:23:44] Belfazaar Ashantison : I understand, Ryan... Sometimes we get a bit aggro when we are lumped in with such things as "blood rituals", "satanists", "murder" and the like... It is very much like telling a gay man that because he is gay, he must be a pedophile... Not a good combination[01:23:57] ryan : and to be honest, if I felt you were all part of a cult I probably wouldn't be here...cult followers scare me

[01:24:16] ryan : for not so obvious reasons...the "believer" mentality scares me...so no, I don't at all view vampirism as a cult

[01:24:24] Octarine Valur : Hehe Wink Thanks.

[01:24:32] ryan : one thing I should add though

[01:24:35] zimmerchild : Oh good.

[01:24:35] ryan : tell me if I"m off base

[01:24:49] ryan : I still get the impression that these small cult groups do form occasionally

[01:24:54] ryan : and of course they get the media limelight

[01:24:58] ryan : but they do pop up, yes?

[01:25:05] RKCoon : One might say the only difference between a cult and a mainstream religion is how public it is.

[01:25:08] Octarine Valur : I'm sure every community has them

[01:25:26] ryan : great point RKCoon

[01:25:52] ryan : so let's do a test of stereotypes, is that ok?

[01:26:12] Nadia115 : Fine with me Ryan..I think lol

[01:26:16] Octarine Valur : sure thing

[01:26:28] ryan : when people think of vampires, I assume the general public thinks - goth....dark makeup, black clothing, etc...

[01:26:33] ryan : silver jewelry all over

[01:26:35] Belfazaar Ashantison : the group in Alabama had nothing to do with the Alabama community... When a group, such as that forms, they are usually completely isolated from the real community (in ANY community)... As I pointed out about the 2 from Arizona, no one in the Arizona community recognized them or the handles by which they were named

[01:26:41] ryan : so tell me, how many of you here match that description?

[01:27:03] Octarine Valur : Not me Wink

[01:27:15] RKCoon : No makeup, myself, as my career doesnt allow it. I fit more the description of a biker than a goth.

[01:27:17] @ wraiths,.., : not me

[01:27:30] Nadia115 : It depends on what I feel like for the day personally. I have tattoos and piercings, but I am a goat and chicken farmer now and also train/break horses for people and teach kids to ride along with babysitting

[01:27:39] Octarine Valur : I'm all jeans and t's...

[01:27:45] Belfazaar Ashantison : I'm a jeans and t-shirt type guy... unless I am specifically doing a Voodoo working, I tend to stray for comfort...

[01:27:50] zimmerchild : At times I match that description, but not every day all the time. I still enjoy colour and occasionally my make up consist of bright pink.

[01:27:55] ryan : isn't that amazing - that's not at all what people picture about the community at all

[01:27:56] Nadia115 : Love my jeans personally too LOL

[01:27:57] Cheri : same here Octarine

[01:28:26] ryan : i'm a biker too RKCoon :-)

[01:28:49] Octarine Valur : I think stereotypes are formed by the visible part of any community

[01:28:53] Belfazaar Ashantison : that's just it, Ryan... someone comes to one of our gatherings where we can deck out, have fun and dress pretty much how we want and they automatically assume that is the way we dress 99% of our lives

[01:28:54] Nadia115 : Usually I am in jeans, no piercings, boots and a hat on the back of a horse

[01:29:11] ryan : lol...sound more like a cowgirl than a "vamp"...

[01:29:24] Nadia115 : Pretty much Ryan Wink

[01:29:51] ryan : who here said they were psi vamps?

[01:30:00] Belfazaar Ashantison : We are pretty much your normal types... We just have one thing that sets us apart and it is truly just a small piece of us....

[01:30:00] ryan : exclusively that is

[01:30:12] @ wraiths,.., : im a 10yr Marine Corps vet...still straight laced

[01:30:13] RKCoon : For the record, I did in fact grow up as something of a redneck myself, and i chose to leave such a lifestyle.

[01:30:31] ryan : Wraiths - you were in the Corps??

[01:30:49] ryan : wow, I don't think you can get further from the stereotype than that

[01:30:56] Nadia115 : I was raised native American myself....completely immersed in the culture

[01:31:04] Belfazaar Ashantison : <=== USAF myself... Proud to have been a gay man who got to serve his country

[01:31:11] ryan : amazing

[01:31:24] Cheri : Army here Smile

[01:31:28] Octarine Valur : Until 2 years ago I was military myself - I still work there as a civilian instructor in IT

[01:31:51] @ wraiths,.., : yes.. have ten years and 3 conflicts under my belt

[01:32:18] ryan : sound like regular folks to me - maybe even above average at that

[01:32:43] Belfazaar Ashantison : nope... just average...

[01:32:58] Nadia115 : Pretty average here as well

[01:32:58] Nadia115 : Pretty average here as well

[01:33:13] Cheri : lol yeh same here

[01:33:31] Nadia115 : Ah...I did do a long stint as crime scene technician in metro Atlanta

[01:33:35] zimmerchild : About there for me as well. lol

[01:33:45] Octarine Valur : Me too - but getting better hehe Wink

[01:33:55] Belfazaar Ashantison : I work at a French Quarter Voodoo shop, where I get to practice my beliefs on a daily basis, work in an organization that is globally active versus locally active... "globally" meaning that we care about our WHOLE community versus "locally" meaning just the vampire community

[01:34:03] Nadia115 : So pretty much normal everyday folks

[01:34:09] Octarine Valur : Warped sense of humor too Wink

[01:34:20] ryan : so, i'm sorry I missed it but how many here are Sang and how many are PSI (or both?)

[01:34:29] Belfazaar Ashantison : I second that one Octarine... I'm definitely a bit warped

[01:34:35] Nadia115 : Haha...you cannot help but have one Octarine

[01:34:38] Belfazaar Ashantison : Sang

[01:34:44] Nadia115 : Sang

[01:34:47] Octarine Valur : Sang
[01:34:52] zimmerchild : I'm both, what I like to call a hybrid type 1 to be exact.

[01:34:56] RKCoon : Sang

[01:35:02] ryan : oh hybrid, right

[01:35:08] @ wraiths,.., : sang

[01:35:22] ryan : great okay...so all Sang pretty much

[01:35:33] ryan : I keep asking the same question and get different answers

[01:35:39] ryan : so I'd love if you could all elaborate

[01:35:50] ryan : i assume your answers will be just as varied...lol

[01:36:05] ryan : what do you personally feel drives the "need"?

[01:36:12] ryan : physical?

[01:36:15] Belfazaar Ashantison : Probably, we each have our own style of answering...

[01:36:05] ryan : what do you personally feel drives the "need"?

[01:36:12] ryan : physical?

[01:36:15] Belfazaar Ashantison : Probably, we each have our own style of answering...

[01:36:52] Nadia115 : Physical for me

[01:37:10] EvilVampyre has been disconnected the Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:37 am (session timeout)

[01:37:16] EvilVampyre has joined the chat on Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:37 am

[01:37:33] Belfazaar Ashantison : Wow... I like that question... Let me start by giving the definition of vampirism that both HoME and NOVA use

[01:37:42] ryan : cool ok

[01:37:42] Belfazaar Ashantison : "Vampirism is a physiological condition wherein the afflicted person's body does not either produce enough, or none at all, of the essential energies to maintain a proper balance of physical, mental and emotional well-being and must, therefore, turn to outside sources to attain these energies. These sources range from blood to psychic energy to empathic energy to elemental energy to the ambient negative energy present every day to eclectic mixes of any of the above sources."

[01:38:05] Octarine Valur : I feed PSI too, mainly off elemental energy, but feel I have learned to do this to compensate for not being able to feed sang as regularaly as I need to

[01:38:11] Belfazaar Ashantison : Vampirism mimics several conditions and each person responds to it differently

[01:38:42] Nadia115 : -nods-

[01:38:46] Belfazaar Ashantison : For me, it is a VERY physical need... And when I do not feed properly, it shows on me in a physical manner

[01:39:17] Nadia115 : Mine shows as Fibro/Lupus type symptoms and I guess I should add severe depression as well

[01:39:18] ryan : Belfazaar - given that definition, does that mean that to be a real vampire one must believe in those energies - not just have a physical need for blood?

[01:39:18] Belfazaar Ashantison : you can REALLY see it in me

[01:39:53] Belfazaar Ashantison : Its like asking a vegetarian why they chose that path versus being omnivorous

[01:40:09] Nadia115 : I can feel it in every ince of my body personally..

[01:40:15] ryan : yeah you'll get different answers from vegetarians too :-)

[01:40:16] Nadia115 : inch

[01:40:22] Belfazaar Ashantison : I stopped trying to keep up with the terms of the community ages ago...

[01:40:16] Nadia115 : inch

[01:40:22] Belfazaar Ashantison : I stopped trying to keep up with the terms of the community ages ago...

[01:40:52] ryan : so it's physical to the point of being medical

[01:41:03] ryan : sounds dangerous to *not* drink blood then...

[01:41:03] Nadia115 : For me it is

[01:41:16] ryan : have any of you had interactions with doctors?

[01:41:17] Nadia115 : Mainly painful lol

[01:41:21] Belfazaar Ashantison : as it is a physical need for me, and requires a physical medium to transfer the energy... I can only honestly tell you that this is what works.... FOR ME

[01:41:28] Octarine Valur : When I don't feed, I begin to feel tired, low energy, depressed. After a while without feeding I begin to get joint pains, flu symptoms etc

[01:41:36] Nadia115 : I have had far too many interactions with doging their shouldersctors that I have left shrug

[01:41:58] ryan : yeah - I'd have to assume doctor's would be clueless with such a case

[01:42:05] ryan : doctors that is

[01:42:07] Belfazaar Ashantison : I tried the medical and psychiatric routes... Took every pill, made every dietary change and even had to take B-12 shots in the backside... None of it worked

[01:42:07] Nadia115 : doctors..I apologize for my typing

[01:42:14] RKCoon : Ive had several checkups, including a complete blood workup due to a penicilin reaction. No surprises.

[01:42:29] Nadia115 : Same here as RK

[01:42:37] ryan : so they found you completely healthy RKCook & Nadia?

[01:42:40] Octarine Valur : It was suspected that I had porphyria as a child, hyperallergic reactions to medications etc, anemia and so on

[01:42:46] ryan : at least as far as they could detect of course

[01:42:57] Nadia115 : All my doctors have done is prescribe me narcotics for pain which I am allergic to

[01:42:58] Cheri : a visit to their Dr. is most often the first thing we recomend to anyone thinking they may be a vampire

[01:43:12] RKCoon : Asideo f the aforementioned penicilin reaction, healthy with nothing abnormal.

[01:43:12] Belfazaar Ashantison : One of my doctors told me he found an "anomaly" one time... Something he could not explain in my blood, but he was my hematologist

[01:43:20] Nadia115 : Yes, they have found nothing at all wrong with me

[01:43:38] RKCoon : I will say that that was not a full genetic scan or such, only blood testing, but as I said, nothing surprising.

[01:43:41] ryan : anomaly - I like that...haha

[01:44:09] zimmerchild : There have been several times I've visited the hospital or my doctor for odd pains and issues. They've yet to figure out what might be causing the odd issues, and I often leave my doctor scratching his head.

[01:44:46] Nadia115 : All of mine are baffled LOL

[01:44:48] ryan : In my interview with Lady CG and her counterparts, I was sort of scorned for suggesting porphyria - I take it that's been ruled out in general by the community?

[01:45:03] Nadia115 : It has for me

[01:45:04] Octarine Valur : Pretty much I think

[01:45:20] Belfazaar Ashantison : Gotta love a community that can set the "practicing medical community" on its backside scratching their heads

[01:45:31] ryan : so is the general consensus this is likely an as-yet unknown medical condition science just hasn't caught up with?

[01:45:40] Nadia115 : No kidding belfazaar!

[01:45:49] Belfazaar Ashantison : porphyria has a genetic marker and is usually passed through the family lines

[01:46:31] ryan : yes - I actually contacted the founder of the Porphyria foundation and she told me I was barking up the wrong tree...

[01:46:55] Belfazaar Ashantison : There is a rare eye condition that they've JUST recently detected and funds are being raised for it through shows like "True Blood" or our events down here at Halloween this year

[01:47:15] Octarine Valur : In general I would say a lot of vamps seem to believe that medicine or science will one day be able to explain us

[01:47:44] @ wraiths,.., : how can the tens of thousands of us be wrong? ..

[01:47:45] ryan : yes - i would have to believe that given all of your own medical/physical experiences

[01:47:54] Belfazaar Ashantison : <== is seriously hoping that that is the case, Octarine

[01:48:23] Octarine Valur : Me too, but that doesn't mean everyone in the community believes the same thing though

[01:48:27] RKCoon : Wraiths - how can tens of MILLIONS of people be wrong regarding thier various religions?

[01:48:47] ryan : it'll be a good day when the psychology community will have to eat crow for the syndromes they developed to explain this

[01:49:12] Nadia115 : pale

[01:49:31] ryan : I think they even have a "vampire" syndrome, don't they?

[01:49:36] Nadia115 : I do hope so Ryan..

[01:49:37] Belfazaar Ashantison : they still haven't apologized for calling homosexuality a mental disorder, what makes you think they will for vampirism? lol

[01:49:45] Nadia115 : I am not sure about that one

[01:49:48] ryan : true!

[01:49:59] Octarine Valur : I think psychologists look at something they can't explain or don't understand and then think up a cool name for it

[01:50:15] ryan : I might be thinking of Renfield's

[01:50:33] Octarine Valur : I believe that has been removed

[01:50:39] ryan : ahh

[01:50:42] Belfazaar Ashantison : No, I think you are correct, Ryan...

[01:50:42] Octarine Valur : Last I checked Wink

[01:51:30] ryan : I'm no psychologist, but I don't recall a mental condition having such powerful physical manifestations

[01:51:34] @ wraiths,.., : renfield syn. isnt accepted

[01:51:41] Belfazaar Ashantison : "vampire syndrome" has been their replacement for Renfield's

[01:51:43] ryan : physical effects yes...but the symptoms you all describe?

[01:51:54] ryan : they seem very strong - painful

[01:51:58] Nadia115 : Depression can...but it is not the same as vampirism

[01:52:02] Octarine Valur : Renfields syndrome had more to do with the belief that a person is "collecting lives" such as a serial killer for example - not much to do with real vampires

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[01:52:37] Belfazaar Ashantison : Sometimes, they can be the veritable pain in the backside

[01:52:55] Belfazaar Ashantison : It is not nearly as glamorous as Hollywood has made it out to be

[01:53:08] ryan : oh - one thing I've always wondered is about that

[01:53:32] Nadia115 : I know when I do not even want to move out of my bed because of pain it is nothing near what Hollywood Portrays

[01:53:33] ryan : I've heard there are a number within the community that intentially "dress up" to that stereotype

[01:53:37] Belfazaar Ashantison : the newer version or the more mythically accepted?

[01:53:43] ryan : is that true...is it a way to mock the stereotype?

[01:54:10] Octarine Valur : Yes - I think that fictional stereotype is exactly why people think we are crazy

[01:54:17] ryan : I think I read that in one of Joe Laycock's interviews btw

[01:54:26] Belfazaar Ashantison : If you look at the community as a whole from the outsider's point of view, there are three "levels"... Role players, life stylers and "real"

[01:54:33] ryan : the mythically accepted Belfazaar, fangs and all

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[01:54:43] Octarine Valur : If it didn't exist, people might look at us a little differently
- and you might say that so would we

[01:55:02] ryan : yes, that seems true Octarine

[01:55:16] Belfazaar Ashantison : Role players tend to adopt the role of a character, the life stylers find the aesthetics to be pleasing so live by them...

[01:55:20] zimmerchild : I know I like dressing to the nines, fangs and all, but I only really do that for special occasions.

[01:55:38] ryan : doesn't that feed the stereotype Z?

[01:55:39] Octarine Valur : I only do that at Halloween Wink
[01:56:02] Belfazaar Ashantison : When I have my fangs in, they are ONLY used to break the ice... Someone will see them and say, "oh you must be a vampire" and I will say, "Yes... Now let me tell you what it REALLY is"

[01:56:15] zimmerchild : Ryan, mayhaps, but I do it for things like Halloween, or a ball the I attend in Portland.

[01:56:24] @ wraiths,.., : lmfao... i dont even own fangs

[01:56:50] ryan : I can kind of understand it - I mean lots of cultures do the same thing

[01:56:56] ryan : overplay the stereotypes

[01:57:00] zimmerchild : Wraiths, I lost mine two Halloweens ago when I almost swallowed them with my drink.
[01:57:01] Belfazaar Ashantison : Most of us only deck out during the big gatherings... Then, it is usually done like an old masquerade ball

[01:57:56] ryan : you know - I saw it myself when I told people about my article

[01:57:59] Cheri has been disconnected the Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:57 am (session timeout)

[01:58:00] ryan : about the "vampire" reaction

[01:58:04] Cheri has joined the chat on Fri Dec 17, 2010 1:58 am

[01:58:12] ryan : they all said I should stock up on garlic and beware!

[01:58:20] Octarine Valur : Where I live Halloween is still new and shiny, and dress-up isn't very big. So when you dress up as anything it draws attention Wink

[01:58:31] zimmerchild : lol Garlic works against me, I'm allergic to it.

[01:58:35] ryan : once I started getting to know "real" vampires - conversing with them - it just made me really sad

[01:58:43] RKCoon : I go through quite a bit of garlic actually - its an excellent spice.

[01:58:43] ryan : no way Z...seriously? ha!

[01:58:45] Belfazaar Ashantison : lol... I love when that happens... haven't they read ANY herbalism books... garlic is good for the blood

[01:58:57] Nadia115 : I have fake fangs, but that was for my yearly Halloween job lol...they have not been used in many years though

[01:58:57] ryan : yeah I love garlic :-)

[01:59:06] zimmerchild : Ryan, completely serious. I have lots of food allergies. Very Happy

[01:59:10] Cheri : I know one other vampire that is allergic also Z.

[01:59:37] Nadia115 : I use garlic in everything I cook lol

[01:59:49] Belfazaar Ashantison : Z, that makes 4 in almost 34 years in the community that I've heard about
[01:59:52] ryan : oh - which of you said you were a donor - Nadia?

[01:59:52] zimmerchild : Cheri, yea? I think I know one too.

[01:59:57] Octarine Valur : I'm allegic to medication mostly, but not food

[02:00:06] Nadia115 : No...I am Sang

[02:00:14] ryan : Cheri?

[02:00:22] Cheri : But I myself use it all the time, and have never had an issue donating with it:)

[02:00:26] Nadia115 : I am the "cowgirl" vamp Wink

[02:00:33] ryan : haha

[02:00:39] Cheri : I am Ryan

[02:00:45] zimmerchild : Zaar, it's interesting how that works out. Speaking of garlic, I think there was some in my dinner.

[02:00:51] ryan : Cheri - could you describe what initially inspired you to donate?

[02:01:21] Cheri : I had a very dear friend that asked me if I would be willing to donate

[02:02:00] ryan : was it a completely new thing then?

[02:02:02] Cheri : When I found out how much it helped him, I never hesitated .

[02:02:21] ryan : so it wasn't scary to you at all?

[02:02:43] Cheri : I had been involved in some blood play prior to that, but the idea of real vampires was new at that time

[02:03:17] ryan : oh okay, the blood play answers the second question I think

[02:03:31] ryan : obviously wouldn't be scary to you!

[02:03:49] Cheri : lol the idea of someone drinking my blood was a little

[02:04:16] ryan : so you see it as a way of helping him physically feel better?

[02:04:26] ryan : sort of like when people give blood to the Red Cross...

[02:04:28] Cheri : yes

[02:04:34] ryan : that makes sense

[02:04:35] Cheri : I do that also

[02:04:50] Belfazaar Ashantison : only in this case, it isn't a whole pint of blood you are giving
[02:05:11] ryan : do any of you know if there are any stats on the number of donors supplying Sangs in need?

[02:05:34] Belfazaar Ashantison : Usually about an ounce sates my hunger... At my MOST hungry, it was only 6 ounces...

[02:06:00] ryan : that's not a whole lot - I believe they draw much more when you give blood to the Red Cross?

[02:06:07] Belfazaar Ashantison : *shrugs* don't know about stats, but I use multiple... I have 4 currently so that I don't tax any one of them unnecessarily

[02:06:20] Nadia115 : A pint is usually drawn from Red Cross

[02:06:22] Cheri : I only know that there are alot of Sangs that do not have a donor.

[02:06:26] Octarine Valur : I wouldn't think so... the community is too decentralized for that

[02:06:45] ryan : do those that not have donors just remain sick?

[02:06:58] Nadia115 : I have for very long

[02:07:13] Belfazaar Ashantison : All of my donors are tested regularly, as am I for their comfort and we've all signed the Donor Bill of Rights I created

[02:07:17] zimmerchild : We can use animal blood, but it's not as good as having a donor.

[02:07:18] Cheri : the ones I know do, Ryan

[02:07:21] Nadia115 : I have a donor, but they are a bit far to travel to at the moment

[02:07:44] ryan : amazing

[02:07:47] Nadia115 : -nods- I have used animal blood in a pinch

[02:07:50] ryan : sad though

[02:08:00] Octarine Valur : I have 2 donors at the moment

[02:08:05] Cheri : I am tested reagularly, and insist any vampire I feed be also

[02:08:15] ryan : just doesn't seem fair that the medical field is failing so many people

[02:08:32] Belfazaar Ashantison : I don't subscribe to the animal blood practice because the animal cannot give permission... Although when I was younger and they couldn't figure out what was wrong with me, my Grandmother went to the local Kosher butcher and would bring pints of pig blood home for me to drink... it helped... but not much

[02:08:57] Belfazaar Ashantison : We're not the ONLY condition the medical field is failing...

[02:08:59] ryan : what nationality are you Belfazaar, if you don't mind me asking?

[02:09:10] ryan : your grandmother seems like she was very wise...

[02:09:11] Cheri : The medical field fails alot of people

[02:09:14] Octarine Valur : I have a friend who fishes a lot. He gets his blood from the fish

[02:09:16] zimmerchild : Zaar, I figure I'm eating the animal anyway, might as well use as much of it as I can.

[02:09:22] Nadia115 : Pig blood is easy to obtain. When they are slaughtered...no need to ask. Plus I know many hunters

[02:09:30] Belfazaar Ashantison : I'm half Jewish/half Tsalagi (Cherokee)

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[02:09:36] ryan : True Cheri

[02:09:43] ryan : ahh Cherokee

[02:10:05] Nadia115 : Ahhh Belfazaar I am Tslagi,Anasazi,Mayan

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[02:10:10] zimmerchild : lol Pig blood, I'm allergic to pork.

[02:10:31] Belfazaar Ashantison : Don't get me wrong, I just have a stricter guideline that I follow... I'm not saying it is bad... Just that I don't subscribe to it and the reason I don't

[02:10:35] Nadia115 : Which is how I know to ask hunters for blood to make "Blood Pudding"

[02:10:46] Nadia115 : They do not bat an eye on that

[02:11:00] ryan : so from your reaction Belfazaar, I get the impression that's a strictly enforced rule - that consent must be given

[02:11:11] Belfazaar Ashantison : Nice to see another "sky child" around

[02:11:20] ryan : I've heard blood pudding is quite good... :-)

[02:11:32] Nadia115 : It is Wink
[02:11:48] Belfazaar Ashantison : for me, yes Ryan... I adhere to it strictly... Permission must be granted...

[02:11:56] Cheri : can't stand blood pudding Smile

[02:11:58] Belfazaar Ashantison : Even if it means I suffer for a time

[02:12:02] zimmerchild : I have a cook book for recipes containing blood. It's very handy.

[02:12:05] @ wraiths,.., : very much soo ryan

[02:12:36] Nadia115 : Yes Ryan, it is very tasty

[02:12:40] ryan : okay, so I can see why people in the community get so angry about the self-proclaimed vampires in the news

[02:12:49] ryan : the wackos that always hit the front page

[02:13:14] Belfazaar Ashantison : It is so EASY to be unethical... Too easy... But because of my spirituality, I find that it keeps my path clear

[02:13:15] ryan : and aren't really part of the community

[02:13:44] RKCoon has been disconnected the Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:13 am (session timeout)

[02:13:51] ryan : yes, I guess you could say that about many aspects of life

[02:13:52] @ wraiths,.., : yes...

[02:13:53] Belfazaar Ashantison : yep... hell we got a guy in Canada that is furious about being labeled vampire in HIS crime

[02:14:22] @ wraiths,.., : our community equates it to rape ryan

[02:14:23] Cheri : Ryan, the only time I have ever been harmed in the many years I have donated, was from a sicko that was into blood play, not a real vampire

[02:14:27] Octarine Valur : Yes and he actually bit people Wink

[02:14:39] ryan : so the recent vampire craze (Twilight) must be driving you all batty... (for lack of a better word) :-)

[02:14:53] ryan : that's amazing Cheri

[02:15:05] Belfazaar Ashantison : nah... glad my daughter found Twilight versus Anita Blake...

[02:15:15] ryan : haha!

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[02:15:25] Cheri : real vampires treat their doners very well.

[02:15:36] Belfazaar Ashantison : I love my Laurell K, but whew!!! The scenes described in the books could make a sailor blush

[02:15:39] ryan : well it made it hard to find you folks, to be honest

[02:16:12] ryan : it seems like the larger goth community ascribes itself to the vampire community....it makes it hard to see the "core" - if that makes any sense

[02:16:29] Nadia115 : It does make sense

[02:16:38] Belfazaar Ashantison : Several years ago, I created a document called the Donor Bill of Rights and came up with a suggested contract for it... it is NOT a legal and binding contract, but it IS basic common sense which seems to be lacking in the world today

[02:17:16] ryan : true...it could probably apply to a lot of things in life

[02:17:30] ryan : doesn't have to be blood, could be anything

[02:17:39] Cheri : And I use it as the opener with any vampire I am donating to Belfazaar

[02:17:41] Belfazaar Ashantison : Kinda like you can't see the forest through the trees, Ryan... Yeah... We've played hell and high water over the years carving our own community out of being a fringe community from the BDSM community, the Goth community and more

[02:18:12] ryan : Belfazaar - it's got to feel like a losing battle

[02:18:26] ryan : those communities are just so huge

[02:19:26] EvilVampyre : Certain novelty to being a niche group hidden under layers of another subculture Smile

[02:19:48] Belfazaar Ashantison : Not at all... Most of us in the community are only concerned that our friends, family and loved ones are cared for... So... We really aren't so worried about "acceptance" from the outer communities... We just work towards our OWN community at a slower pace

[02:20:06] ryan : that makes a lot of sense

[02:20:52] ryan : it's funny (well not really) - it's like the European Christians moving into Native lands and trying to "save" the natives

[02:21:12] ryan : who, maybe after all, didn't need saving - but should have been left to their own to thrive

[02:21:43] ryan : I guess a lot of us outsiders view the vampire community as needing "saving"

[02:21:48] ryan : I guess that's not the right way to look at it

[02:21:49] Belfazaar Ashantison : We have people in the community who, by the merest hint of illicit behavior, have lost their children... No interviews. No witnessed accounts. No signs of violence or abusive behaviors... But because someone insinuated there was "vampires", "satanists" and the like around the children... They were taken... So we, as a community, tend to keep that VERY close to home... Family first

[02:22:21] ryan : i get it

[02:22:30] ryan : it really hits close to home doesn't it

[02:22:39] Nadia115 : I know when I worked for the police department, this part of my life was very hidden

[02:22:52] Belfazaar Ashantison : If they can take our children without so much as a "how do you do", they can take anyone's

[02:23:09] Nadia115 : Many made guesses, but I never confirmed, though it was safe for me to be open about my wiccan/pagan beliefs

[02:23:25] ryan : do you think they would have kicked you out?

[02:23:51] Belfazaar Ashantison : If not, they might have not trusted her judgment about things

[02:23:53] Cheri : I myself work with youth in my home town, I keep this side of my life out of that part for a reason.

[02:23:56] Nadia115 : For politcal reasons, I am sure I would have lost my job. Especially considering I dealt with numerous murders and blood evidence

[02:24:18] ryan : that's true - and in reality you were able to handle it quite well

[02:24:24] ryan : the responsibilities vs. your need

[02:24:28] ryan : so that says a lot too

[02:24:35] Nadia115 : One mention of vampirism or being connected to the community and murderers would be walking free

[02:25:19] Belfazaar Ashantison : This is also why the community deals in "alternative names"... It isn't to hide what we are, but to keep our jobs, to keep our families safe and to know that we will be safe to walk down the street to the corner store and back for a pack of smokes

[02:25:20] Nadia115 : I never had a problem handling any of it really

[02:25:21] ryan : I guess I now understand the need for pseudonyms

[02:25:26] ryan : was wondering about that

[02:25:38] ryan : exactly Belfazaar :-)

[02:25:57] ryan : that confused me at first...I kept thinking, why don't you just give me your real name?

[02:26:20] Belfazaar Ashantison : Personally... most people KNOW my real name, but call me Zaar because I use that to honor my Great Grandfather who was a full blood Tsalagi Medicine Man...

[02:26:29] Cheri : see I never have used a pseudonym

[02:26:43] Nadia115 : I also do animal rescue on a very large scale and babysit police officers kids as well...it would not bode well for me to out my whole name

[02:26:55] ryan : two generations, full blod medicine man?

[02:26:57] ryan : wow

[02:27:01] @ wraiths,.., : i actually got my name while i was in the Corps

[02:27:03] zimmerchild has been disconnected the Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:27 am (session timeout)

[02:27:07] Cheri : indeed Nadia

[02:27:24] ryan : isn't that amazing Nadia

[02:27:35] ryan : seriously - when you look at the fears vs the reality

[02:27:38] ryan : here you are taking care of kids

[02:27:49] ryan : and the mere mention of your condition and that trust would disappear?

[02:27:59] Nadia115 : I have a litter of puppies that were orphaned that I bottle fed...not many people would want to trust picking them up for adoption or even trust me to take them if they knew

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[02:28:13] Nadia115 : Exactly.

[02:28:24] ryan : whew

[02:28:31] Nadia115 : So to keep that trust, I use Nadia

[02:28:32] ryan : okay...I'm having overload

[02:28:50] ryan : I've learned so much from you all already

[02:28:58] Belfazaar Ashantison : House of Mystic Echoes and NOVA are work with the homeless in New Orleans... We are also working on creating a homeless shelter that is glbt/pagan oriented... It will be accepting of all people, but when the local shelters find out you fall into one of those categories they tend to put you out or try to "save your soul"

[02:29:28] Octarine Valur has been disconnected the Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:29 am (session timeout)

[02:29:31] ryan : ha...yes because of course you're all satan-worshipping vampires

[02:29:33] ryan : lord help us

[02:29:34] Octarine Valur has joined the chat on Fri Dec 17, 2010 2:29 am

[02:29:45] RKCoon : What god, I ask.

[02:29:45] Cheri : ryan you are welcome to contact me if you have questions, but rember I am only one donor out of many in the community.

[02:30:00] ryan : I appreciate that a great deal

[02:30:05] Belfazaar Ashantison : Many times, those types of "christians" forget the concept that Jesus was a friend of the sinners
[02:30:09] Cheri : I can and will only give my experiance

[02:30:20] ryan : exactly Belfazaar

[02:30:51] ryan : please feel free to contact me - I'll give Wraiths my email via facebook

[02:30:52] @ wraiths,.., : im very happy that you have joined us here Ryan.. and for this great turn out

[02:31:02] Octarine Valur : We're a diverse lot as you can see, Ryan Wink

[02:31:08] ryan : you're all very welcome to write and comment directly on anything I write

[02:31:12] Belfazaar Ashantison : lol... you could always hit me up on FB too...

[02:31:18] ryan : yes i see that Octarine - it's refreshing

[02:31:34] ryan : oh yes that's right i have your ID on there too

[02:31:37] ryan : oh!

[02:31:41] Nadia115 : We are very multidementional Wink

[02:31:43] ryan : one more thing

[02:31:44] Belfazaar Ashantison : Again, I do apologize if you got any heat from my comments on you TSW site

[02:31:54] ryan : i forgot his name...one sec

[02:32:11] ryan : there is a leader in the community that runs a multitude of sites

[02:32:17] ryan : or at least one large one...starts with M

[02:32:26] ryan : I'm searching my emails...my brain is fried at the moment...lol

[02:32:27] Belfazaar Ashantison : Merticus

[02:32:29] Nadia115 : Merticus?

[02:32:32] ryan : yes!

[02:32:49] ryan : I was hoping he would be here because there was a bit of a scandal

[02:32:56] ryan : I actually threatened him

[02:33:02] RKCoon : Oh? Do tell.

[02:33:06] ryan : well sort of

[02:33:16] ryan : yes - I was forwarded info from anonymous sources

[02:33:30] ryan : I guess because I run a site called "Top Secret Writers" they thought I was some kind of boy spy

[02:33:36] @ wraiths,.., : mert is as straight as they come ryan

[02:33:42] ryan : so they started "spying" for me

[02:33:52] Belfazaar Ashantison : ouch... Mert felt it would be best to stay out to keep things on an even keel...

[02:34:03] ryan : thing is - nothing they forwarded was solid

[02:34:12] Belfazaar Ashantison : Besides, if you check the sources, they are Sappho... Or at least one of her tools

[02:34:13] ryan : no real evidence, just insinuations

[02:34:22] ryan : yes - that's exactly it Belfazaar

[02:34:32] ryan : after all of that happened, I realized who the "anonymous" source likely was

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[02:34:41] Belfazaar Ashantison : lol!

[02:34:47] ryan : but Metricus in particular was rubbing it in on facebook

[02:34:49] @ wraiths,.., : for the record ryan, it was myself and another who done the "spying" on sappho

[02:34:57] ryan : sending me messages like "don't you feel silly"

[02:35:13] ryan : so I thougth he was setting up some kind of smear campaign against Sappho

[02:35:24] ryan : only an hour later I discovered the evidence on the blog comments

[02:35:27] Belfazaar Ashantison : yeah... You see, those of us in the VVC KNOW the rules... One of the rules is "what happens here stays here"

[02:35:36] ryan : so bottom line...if you talk to him please apologize for me

[02:35:36] RKCoon : You cannot smear what is already consisting of smear material.

[02:35:42] zimmerchild : Zaar is right.

[02:35:42] zimmerchild : Zaar is right.

[02:36:09] ryan : haha

[02:36:13] ryan : true RKCoon

[02:36:17] RKCoon : And speaking from personal experience, Belfazaar, that is incorrect, but a topic for another day.

[02:36:25] Belfazaar Ashantison : He'll see a copy of this, Ryan... He will see what you wrote
[02:36:26] ryan : when I confronted her about it she deleted her email account!

[02:36:41] ryan : excellent Belfazaar, thanks

[02:37:17] ryan : please look for Joe's interview, and hopefully Lady CG and company in the new year

[02:37:20] ryan : do you all know Lono?

[02:37:21] Belfazaar Ashantison : RK, I know your feelings very well, and respect them... But Mert has always been on the level with me throughout the years I've known him...

[02:37:25] Octarine Valur : Thank you for joining us Ryan Smile

[02:37:30] RKCoon : Mert has, yes.

[02:37:38] Belfazaar Ashantison : Lono is a friend

[02:37:42] Nadia115 : He was not speaking of Mert.

[02:37:48] ryan : ok good - that's good to hear

[02:38:09] ryan : we're talking as well - so basically I'm now meating all of the "good guys" in the community...lol

[02:38:11] ryan : finally...

[02:38:21] ryan : meeting... :-)

[02:38:24] RKCoon : If you say so.

[02:38:31] Nadia115 : I thought the typo was pretty funny

[02:38:32] Belfazaar Ashantison : There are others who don't play by the rules, but I still do... And try to always keep that in the front of my head

[02:38:35] ryan : I'll pretend I didn't hear that :-)

[02:38:46] EvilVampyre : Merticus is one of those omnipresent vampires. I'm sure he holds no grudges against you... nothing personal at least.

[02:38:49] RKCoon : Then I shall repeat - If you say so.

[02:38:53] ryan : haha!

[02:39:04] Belfazaar Ashantison : Thanks Ryan...

[02:39:10] ryan : thanks everyone

[02:39:11] Cheri : I would say you have met a simple cross section of the community

[02:39:21] ryan : definitely

[02:39:23] Nadia115 : No problem Ryan

[02:39:34] Nadia115 : It was nice on our end as well i think

[02:39:37] ryan : have a great night - hope we have a chance to talk again some time

[02:39:50] Cheri : you as well Ryan

[02:39:50] Nadia115 : Have a good evening as well

[02:39:58] Belfazaar Ashantison : I'm always around Ryan... Just poke and say hello

[02:40:13] ryan : great - bye now!

[02:40:16] Octarine Valur : Good night and thank you all for coming Smile

[02:40:21] zimmerchild : Night.
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Debate between OVC and Ryan Dube 16 Dec 2010
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